In my previous posts on Benghazi I’ve detailed:
- The timelines of deteriorating security and requests for additional security in the months preceding the attack.
- The timeline of the attack itself.
Today I want to continue this investigation into the attacks on Benghazi by asking the question: Where was the air support?
Basis for the Question
The surprising lack air cover should, I hope, be a fairly obvious question for any critical thinker looking at the attack timeline. After all, the attack unfolded over a period of eight hours and, in the midst of the events, there was no way of knowing precisely when the attacks would end. Had the attackers been more determined it’s entirely possible that this attack could have dragged on for substantially longer than it did – even days.
Indeed, one must conclude that the Department of Defence (DOD) concurred with this assessment given that their response to the situation was the mobilization of three different teams none of which could even hope to arrive in Benghazi before the afternoon or evening of September 12th nearly 24 hours after the start of the attack.
So, given that the DOD’s own response implied an understanding that the attacks may continue for a protracted period, the question stands: Why was there never an attempt to bring air power to bear? Why would DOD mobilize three fully equipped ground response teams (by air transport) and yet not mobilize available close air support assets?
This simply doesn’t make sense.
And It’s Not Just Me
No, it’s not just me asking this obvious question. Importantly, some of the key people on the ground in Benghazi during the attack, notably the man in charge of security in Libya (Regional Security Officer Eric Nordstrom) and the man who became the lead State Department official in Libya upon Ambassador Steven’s death (Deputy Chief of Mission Gregory Hicks) have the same question. When these men were asked during testimony before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee about the lack of air cover, both questioned the reasons given by DOD officials. I have included the relevant short excepts of this testimony in Appendix A – I highly recommend reading these excerpts.
The Official Story
The official word on this question is that it wasn’t possible to get air-cover in Benghazi due to a lack of tankers available to refuel F-16 from the nearest air base in Aviano, Italy. And, since Benghazi was beyond the combat radius for an F-16, this became the limiting factor which prevented F-16s from being launched.
Again, I would refer you to Appendix A for the relevant House Oversight Committee testimony.
The Tactical Reality
Now that we’ve got the official story on record let’s take a look at the tactical reality of the situation (click for a sharper image):
The distance from Aviano Air Force Base (AFB) in Italy to Benghazi is 1044 miles. Aviano AFB is home to the 510th and 555th fighter squadrons both of which fly F-16s.
The combat radius of an F-16 depends on its payload but, even with a standard payload of a couple of sidewinders and two 1000 pound bombs (and no external tank), 500 miles would be a conservative estimate for the combat radius of this aircraft. Cruising speed for an F-16 is around 577 mph.
Then there’s the red mark on the above map: Naval Air Station (NAS) Sigonella – a scant 468 miles from Benghazi and 610 miles from Aviano AFB. During the ‘liberation’ of Libya, almost 4000 combat sorties were flown out of NAS Sigonella. While Sigonella does not have a permanent fighter presence, it is a well established air base and is in constant use as a hub in the Mediterranean for U.S. military aircraft.
The Obvious Solution – Pit-Stop Sigonella
Now that we have an understanding of the tactical constraints facing the DOD, there is a (hopefully) obvious solution that more alert readers probably picked up on.
- Hour 0-1. While the F-16s at Aviano are not on strip alert, given the genuine emergency it’s reasonable to expect that within an hour of the order being given a sober pilot or two could have been located, an aircraft fuelled and in the air with a minimal default loadout. In this scenario the aircraft may have had only ammunition for its 20mm cannon and pilot would be given a simple briefing on the way to the plane: Get to NAS Sigonella.
- Hour 1-2. Given that the distance from AFB Aviano to NAS Sigonella is only 610 miles, the pilot would be able to quickly attain altitude and cruise at above the standard cruising speed of 577 mph. The F-16 would be on the ground at NAS Sigonella within an hour of its departure from AFB Aviano. During this one hour flight two important things would happen:
- Via radio the pilot receives a more detailed briefing. The plan – a quick refuelling at NAS Sigonella and an immediate departure for Benghazi to fly a close air support (CAS) mission.
- NAS Sigonella is informed of the incoming F-16 and told to prepare for immediate refuelling of the aircraft upon its arrival.
- Hour 2-2.5. The F-16 arrives at NAS Sigonella and is immediately refuelled. While it’s possible to refuel an F-16 without even stopping the engines (hot-pit refuelling), it’s also possible that NAS Sigonella didn’t have a refuelling team available that was trained for this. Thus, let’s assume that the refuelling process takes a full 30 minutes before the F-16 is again airborne and enroute to Benghazi.
- Hour 2.5-3.5. Given it is only 468 miles from NAS Sigonella to Benghazi the F-16 is on station and providing close air support within 3.5 hours from the initial order.
And, of course, subsequent F-16s could follow the same route at intervals to ensure that continuous air coverage was provided from that time on.
What Difference Would This Have Made?
According to the people on the ground and knowledgable about such matters, the appearance of U.S. warplanes would have been a total game-changer (see their testimony in Appendix A). Basically, the consensus is that a single low altitude pass by an F-16 at full afterburner would have put the fear of God into the attackers – these men had all seen U.S. airpower in action during the Libyan campaign and would have tucked-tail and run as soon as air support showed up.
So, By What Time Could the F-16s Have Arrived in Benghazi?
Going back to our timeline of the attack (which started at 21:42), we can see that by 21:59 DOD had already redirected a surveillance drone to Benghazi. This quick response is important because is shows us how efficiently orders could get relayed through the DOD chain of command. By 23:00 it was clear to DOD that the attack involved U.S. casualties and was ongoing. In my mind, there is no reason not to have scrambled the F-16s at this point. After all, the worst case would be that the situation resolved and the F-16s would turn around and go home. There was simply no reason not to deploy the F-16s and, conversely, every reason to do so.
Using 23:00 as the departure time, this would have put an F-16 overhead by 02:30 on September 12 – nearly three hours before the attack on the Annex which killed two additional U.S. personnel. Had these F-16s been scrambled it’s very likely that the fatal attack on the Annex would never have occurred.
Troubling Questions
All this lays out some really troubling questions:
- Why were the F-16s never given orders to move? Nobody knew how long the situation would persist. Why on earth would DOD not even attempt to get air assets into place and chose instead to mobilize ground forces from distant locations (including continental U.S.)?
- Why has there been a conspicuous lack of testimony from DOD officials? I’ve read virtually every official report I can get my hands on and the only thing provided by DOD is a two page timeline of events from DOD’s perspective. Someone needs to directly ask the right people from within DOD why no attempt was made to put planes in the air.
Conclusion
The absence of tanker support did not prevent F-16s from being able to provide close air support to U.S. personnel in time to prevent the second attack. Despite the DOD decision to send three teams of ground personnel, none of whom would be able to arrive until the evening of September 12th, no attempt was ever made to move available fighters. This is completely nonsensical.
Clearly the official investigations into Benghazi need to take hard looks at these facts. This hasn’t happened. Either DOD was told to stand-down or there was supreme incompetence that resulted in the deaths of two Americans.
Appendix A – Testimony of Gregory Hicks and Eric Nordstrom Before House Oversight and Governmental Reform Committee
Testimony of Gregory Hicks to Congressman Cummings' Questions
Congressman Elijah Cummings: In the interview with the committee staff you stated, and I quote, “In my personal opinion a fast mover flying over Benghazi at some point, you know, as soon as possible might very well have prevented some of the bad things that happened that night”. Is that right? Did you say that?
Deputy Chief of Mission Gregory Hicks: Yes, sir, I did.
Cummings: And you further stated, and I quote, “I believe that we had been able to scramble a fighter or aircraft or two over Benghazi as quickly as possible after the attack commenced, I believe there would not have been a mortar attack on the Annex in the morning because I believe the Libyans would have split”. Is that right?
Hicks: Yes, sir.
Cummings: At a hearing in February before the Senate Armed Services Committee General Dempsey, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was asked whether we could have deployed F-16s from Aviano air base in Italy, and he explained why we could not, and these are his words. We’re just trying to make sure we get the complete picture. For a couple reasons, and I quote, “for a couple reasons, one is that in order to deploy them it requires this is the middle of the night now. These are not aircraft on strip alert. They’re there as a part of our commitment to NATO and Europe, and so as we looked at the timeline, it was pretty clear that it would take up to 20 hours or so to get them there”. Mr. Hicks, I understand that you wanted planes to get to Benghazi faster. If I were in your shoes, I would have wanted them to get there yesterday. Yesterday. And that is completely understandable, but the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said they simply could not get there quickly. Mr. Hicks, do you have any reason to question General Dempsey’s testimony before the Senate?
Hicks: Again, I was speaking from my perspective.
Cummings: I understand.
Hicks: On the ground in Tripoli, based on what the Defense Attache told me. And he said two to three hours.
Cummings: Ok.
Hicks: But there were no tankers.
Cummings: All right.
Hicks: And I also was speaking with reference to conversations I had had with veteran Libyan revolutionaries, and other personnel who had experienced the Libyan revolution and who had told me that the Libyan people were very well aware of — sorry, that American and NATO air power had been decisive in their victory and I was also speaking to their view, again, that Libyans would not stand if they were aware that American aircraft were in the vicinity.
Cummings: I understand. So former Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta also testified in February, and he said this, and I quote – he says “Soon after the initial reports about the attack, the President ordered all available DOD assets to respond to the attack in Libya and to protect U.S. personnel and interests in the region. Some have asked why other types of armed aircraft were not dispatched to Benghazi. The reason is because armed UAVS, AC-130 gun ships or fixed wing fighters with associated tanking, armaments, targeting and support capabilities were not in the vicinity of Libya and because of the distance would have taken at least 9 to 12 hour if not, more to deploy. This was pure and simple a problem of distance and time”. Do you question his testimony?
Hicks: Sir, again, the Defense Attache said to me fighter aircraft in Aviano might be able to — would not be able to be over Benghazi before two to three hours. That’s what I’m going on – what the Defense Attache told me.
Testimony of Gregory Hicks to Congressman Chaffetz's Questions
Congressman Jason Chaffetz: Mr. Hicks, we typically need permission of a host nation government to fly military aircraft over their territory?
Deputy Chief of Mission Gregory Hicks: Yes, we do.
Chaffetz: And to your knowledge did we ever ask the Libyans for permission to fly over their country?
Hicks: Frequently.
Chaffetz: Did we the night of the attack?
Hicks: The night of the attack?
Chaffetz: The night – once this incident started, did we seek permission from the Libyan government to do flyover?
Hicks: I think in the record there is a UAV was flying over Libya that night and it had permission to be there.
Chaffetz: Did we ever ask for permission to fly anything other than an unarmed drone over Libya during the attack?
Hicks: No.
Chaffetz: Would you have known that?
Hicks: Yes.
Chaffetz: Based on your extensive experience as a diplomat in dealing with the Libyan government, do you believe the Libyans would have grant the over flight rights if we had requested it?
Hicks: I believe they would have.
Chaffetz: Mr. Nordstrom, do you believe that would also be true?
Regional Security Officer Nordstrom: I think certainly in this situation. They were fairly, yeah.
Chaffetz: I think one of the unanswered questions here is if it is a possibility, if there is any chance that we can get military over flight, if we can get a military flight there, then we would ask permission in advance. My concern is there was never an intention, there was never an attempt to actually get these military aircraft over there. I think one of the hard questions we have to ask is not only about the tankers but what was the NATO response? We flew for months over Libya, months we conducted an air campaign, and we have assets. We have NATO partners. We worked for instance with the Italians. It is stunning that our government, the power of the United States of America, couldn’t get a tanker in the air? Mr. Hicks, when did you think that this was actually over? It was done, we were safe?
Hicks: Not until our personnel landed in Tripoli on the C-130.
Chaffetz: And then even then Ansar Al-Sharia posted that, there is a reason why you had to leave the facility in Tripoli.
Hicks: That’s correct.
Chaffetz: When did you actually return to the embassy in Tripoli?
Hicks: We returned I believe on the 14th.
Chaffetz: When did the FAST team arrive to help secure the embassy.
Hicks:They arrived on the night of September 12th about 8 or so.
Chaffetz: And there still was a potential fly over and the government never asked for permission. This is one of the deep concerns.
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A few important facts that have been left out of your analysis. First Aviano is a USAF base operated by US Military and civilian personnel with all the resources needed to serve as a home base for US Fighter Aircraft. Sigonella is a joint Italian, US base staff with some Italian and US military personnel but mostly manned by Italian Civilians that are unionized. The US part of the base has only the resources needed to serve as a shore base for logistical aircraft attached to US Carriers operating in the Med (basically C-2s and H-60s). It also has limited resources for supporting AMC flights in and out the Italy (C-7s, C-131s, civilian contract aircraft, etc). In other words Sigonella does not has a standing capacity to support US Fighter Aircraft operations. So once these planes arrived at Sigonella the simple operation of refueling them would have been a challenge (clearance from the Italian authorities to land fully armed aircraft at a base not equipped to safely handle such planes, permission from the Union for its civilian members to fuel aircraft under such hazardous conditions, Union members willing to volunteer to fuel these planes with they have not training to do, etc). This is provided that the Italians grant the authority (Diplomatic Clearance-DC) needed to fly for Aviano to Sigonella then on to Benghazi. The Italians would be unlikely to grant such clearance until Libya had give clearance for these planes to operate in their airspace. When you look at all of these factors you realize that this scenario requires many moving parts to work or simple is just to complex to make happen in less then 24 hours if ever. On the other hand flights from Aviano that utilize mid air refueling have standing DC in Italy and is simply to do (contact Italian authorities and advise them of the planes flight path and call signs), the only thing you would need is DC for these planes to operate in Libyan airspace.
I’m sorry but you are spinning it. This is the u.s. military. They are ALL trained to make it happen. Explain how our military can take the entire country of Iraq in 24 hours with Bush senior but now we can’t give air support 2 hours away for an 8 hour conflict against 2 u.s. buildings. The assets were there. This will ultimately come down to one of two things, illegal arms deals or pure incompetence.
Comparing the Benghazi situation to the invasion of Iraq is an invalid comparison. The US had months to prepare for the Iraqi invasion. They did that preparation and things went very well. There was no such pre-existing preparation for the Benghazi situation–hence your comparison is invalid
When I was in the Air Force it didn’t matter what base I was on, we always had planes and pilots ready to go at any time. Minutes, not hours. I can’t believe that this has changed.
Chuck….true. From sound asleep to in the air in 15 minutes….tops.
When I was in SAC we had 3 minutes to launch our first bomber. That was in 1971.
We didn’t have alert AC on duty in 2012 in that area.
When I worked in cargo units we worked by a schedule that could be days between launches. In Rescue it was also ready alert.
It depends on which bases what sort of AC and mission and where.
For all we know they may have fighters ready to launch against Russia in 3 minutes, and nothing ready to launch against Libya at all.
If the USA did not have ready, willing and able military staff at Sigonella Naval Air Base, which is the closest European point to north Africa….then I guess BHO should have. After all, it was the anniversary of 911, the most unstable place in the world, and the embassy asked MULTIPLE times for extra security. I guess BHO will also blame this on Georg Bush. The fact that the BHO administration was caught flat footed on this speaks to his lack of experience. Being President of the United States was BHOs first real job!!!!
The Diplomatic security budget was cut by congress. Thats why there were no additional security.
Hey Violet,
yes the security budget was cut from the originally proposed budget number, but even with the cuts it was still the highest budget ever for security.
So that argument is the typical liberal trying to put a spin on the incompetent liberal leadership.
I will blame you for foolish BS.
The security they asked for was 3-5 bodyguards for diplomats going out of the compound, not security guards. I doubt 5 bodyguards would stop 100-150 attackers, or even slow them down much.
Ask congress why they cut security spending, and ask the republicans why they shifted security to private companies.
I suspect a platoon of Marines would have deterred that attack. The commander of the FAST team testified that was exactly what their mission was. They are a security team, not a rescue team.
Tell me, do you think a platoon of Marines could have stopped that attack, or even stopped them from even trying?
The FAST commander said their job was to persuade possible attackers that they did not want to tangle with the Marines.
Oh, and President was GW Bush’s first real job. Everything before that was figurehead and token setups with companies set up by political supporters and bailed out when they failed.
@Violet. State Department sent their budget request to Congress. The House, with a Republican majority at the time, approved 85% of their request. Then it went to the Senate, with a Democrat majority at the time, where that number was upgraded to 90% of what State had requested. Once State gets the money, it’s up to them to decide where to allocate it. They chose badly. Security for example, at the US embassy in Ottawa, Canada is going to need fewer resources than what was needed in Benghazi that night. The onus is mostly on the State Department for not providing adequate security. Hillary was Sec. of State. Obama was her boss.
You’re kidding, right? “Took the entire country of Iraq in 24 hours” – after how many weeks/months of planning and preparation, moving materiel and manpower into position, etc.?
Took Iraq in 24 hours …after a 5 month build up of forces, and nearly 5 weeks of air strikes.
Not to mention that “took an entire country” is an exaggeration. Firstly, it was 48 hours. Secondly, although overwhelming, the offensive didn’t get that far into Iraq before the Iraqis surrendered and a ceasefire was negotiated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Gulf_War
Okay, just how long did it
take our forces to prepare
to invade Iraq and take control of the entire country under President Bush? Talk about spin,
surely we didn’t do it in
24 hours, how about months,
So, what about the C.I.F. team, that I understand was stationed at Sigonella, that night? Is it not the job, of a C.I.F. team, to be ready to fight, in a wide variety of situations, on a moment’s notice? Could we not have flown helicopter gunships, from Sigonella, to Benghazi, rather quickly?
Just as I criticized President Reagan, for not telling the French to bugger off, when they wouldn’t let us fly over, with our FB-111’s, to bomb Libya, in the 80’s, I shal criticize President Obama, for his lack of decisiveness, and getting that C.I.F team, into Benghazi, whether or not the Italians or Libyans gave permission.
Fuck them. Our sovereign soil was under attack. We do what is necessary, to protect our assets. Asking forgiveness, is far better than asking permission.
Who told you a CIF team was stationed at Sigonella?
Dan you are absolutely correct. Pres.
Hussein Obama is to blame. I agree, fuck
them, send gunships 468 miles from
Sigonella Naval Base to Benghazi. Hussein
Obama was probably afraid some muslims
might be killed. The blood of our men is
on the hands of Pres Hussein Obama and
Hillary Clinton, and the rest of scum in
Washington, D.C.
We are talking about one jet to fly in at tree top height to scare the crap out of the. I’ve worked one Air Force flight lines and a f16 flyby not knowing if they are going to shoot or bomb is terrifying.
Chuck,
Can you please outline the combat radius of an F-16 and show me how this is possible given the mileage involved.
Base (AFB) in Italy to Benghazi is 1044 miles. Aviano AFB is home to the 510th and 555th fighter squadrons both of which fly F-16s.
Base (AFB) in Italy to Benghazi is 1044 miles. Aviano AFB is home to the 510th and 555th fighter squadrons both of which fly F-16s.
With drop tanks the F16’s are capable of a distance just short of 2100 NM.
I to am retired USAF whose unit at CAFB furnished personnel to Sig. The F16 could have flown to Sig refueled and been on their way, but indecision, and incompetence prevented any actions being taken. You sound like an Obama supporter with all your excuses. I’m glad we never served together because from what you have written on these threads you’re not a very trust worthy individual.
Exactly Sammy!
ARM’s to Syria via Turkey
I’m so glad that you kept your name anonymous. Spares you a lot of people questioning your IQ. Really we took Iraq in 24 hours. How long did the logistics build up take? 2 hours?
With all due respect, we didn’t need the logistics
build up for the Benghazi situation, we needed
armed drones, or a couple of guns ships.
Even presuming there wasn’t enough time to get the Predator drone armed (I haven’t read anything that indicates we were able to get more than one up over Benghazi), they have a top speed of 135 MPH. Which means that a controlled crash speed should exceed over 150 MPH. Dive the damned drone into the mortar position. If nothing else, you scatter the mortar team and give a respite to the men under attack. With just a bit of luck, you damage the mortar and take that one off-line. Buying a respite for your men under attack and buying just a bit more time for the F-16s to hop to Sigenella, re-fuel, and get over Bhengazi.
On and on I’ve heard about “too far away. Only union civilian personnel at Signenella. They would have been too slow.” No one freaking tried. If the Italians had been too slow to respond, well, at least we would have tried something and we’d know something about our Italian allies will and capabilities, and their leaders would know something about their own capabilities. The one thing you DON’T do is not try.
Also, did Italy or Greece have any tankers they could have scrambled to provide refueling support over the Med? Why didn’t anyone ask them to put something up over the Med? Why didn’t someone ask the Egyptians to put up a re-fueling aircraft? Granted Morsi was an Islamist, and time was moving fast. A request sent through stable elements of the military leadership that the US trusted (since we’d been working with them) might have gotten a response without all of the bureaucracy (particularly an urgent request and mild reminder of how much money the US gave Egypt in defense support annually) – remember that it was the military that was the initial and strongest supporters of those who were against Mubarak – the true democrats that started the revolution.
We could have got to BENGAHAZI easily but you gotta rember there was an presidential election a few week away and it just was not convenient for the Obama administration to get involved at this time it’s a shame the USA looks like complete idiots on this one
You have exactly zero knowledge to present. There were no aircraft available that could do any good.
Everything in the State Dept compound was over in a few hours. Nothing we had could have stayed overhead at the CIA annex for hours.
Obama gave the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs the order to do whatever was needed. That is all the orders the military requires.
Or did he? I think they are just covering for Obama’s indecision. Be didn’t order the military, as Leon Penetta claims.
You and a bunch of others are leaving out a very big piece of the puzzle and that is an attack on a country’s embassy or consulate is an act of war! An act of war, so if they don’t do something and they didn’t it is obvious, then we have every right to include self-defense in the first place never mind outside forces. Second if they could get an unarmed drone over the annex then why not an armed one? There is an air in the Government that if anything goes wrong that person will get hanged out to dry! It has happened Soldiers/Marines denied air support and then died and the liberals don’t even bat an eye they could care less. Obama has put this fear in them. How does it feel to look up to a person who would let you die so scum could live?
How much combat have you seen? I gave this country 22 years starting
in 1967 to 1989. You make it sound so easy, you should enlist and try it out.
Thank You So Much for Protecting this Nation, Sir! I Appreciate and Honor You’re Service.
Todd A. Brown
Are you insinuating Gary is wrong?
Because I see him to be right as rain!
You enlisted the same year I did. My combat unit assignment was SAC, so you know we never went into battle by the evidence that we don’t have half the world in radioactive ashes.
OK, some units did fly in Vietnam, ours were nuke equipped.
And it gets old being thanked for your service by those who would never think of putting on the uniform.
I believe in universal military service. Maybe they will start to realize it takes time to do everything. We don’t have transporters and phasers… yet…that I know of.
stated above sigonella is a joint base, without weapon systems I believe it’s a recon squadron out there
You are right. An attack on an US embassy anywhere is an attack on American soil.
it wasn’t an embassy, it was a diplomatic compound. Big difference
What a crock. You’re playing semantics. Did it have a US flag flying in the compound?
Anon,
quark is right. Now you try to get it right.
I call you a fraud.
They did NOT get an unarmed drone in the air, they already had an unarmed drone in the air, they rerouted it.
Knowing how eagerly Obama has ordered drone attacks, had they had an armed drone available I would bet he would allow it. Though, since he had given the Chairman of the JCS orders to do whatever is necessary, they probably would not have stopped to ask.
You are just a political flack, amateur at that, looking for any chance to smear.
I agree with this analysis. I’ve done the same research. F-16 from aviano to Sigonella to Benghazi is relatively short work for ANY competent planner/commander. It takes no time at all to fuel and fly. I disagree with the need to arm with bombs a this is time sensitive and reduces flight times to carry the weight. On board guns only for ground attack would suffice in this instance.
Yes, but the planes would first have to HAVE a fuel source and do a hot refuel – Our guys are good but these were not ideal conditions even if the assets were flight ready, it’s not like prepping my Cessna after all!
So it’s your position that if the US President or Secretary of State had called the Italian government and said our consulate in Libya is under attack and we are going to refuel jets in Sigonella, the Italian government would have said no, our unionized workers don’t do that kind of work?
That is astonishing if true, and clearly a measure of how impotent Obama is. Obviously, Hillary is held in such low esteem in the eyes of the leaders of our allies that she is not fit to be President.
God forbid that bitch becomes president.
God forbid that you present an intelligent comment.
I would expect the US unit in Sigonella did refuels of aircraft passing through all the time. I believe that was where the C-130s picked up the FAST teams.
So, that part was taken care of.
This is quite ordinary, and evidence of how impotent your thinking is. Obviously Hillary did not get involved as, once the military is given the go order, their philosophy is, ‘Get out of our way’.
Stop trying to politicize a tragic loss.
The transit alert personnel at NAS Sigonella are US personnel. Been there done that.
Were they equipped to refuel F16s?
didn’t General Ham tell the WH they were ready to go?
Jim, you obviously googled it. Never in the service. LOL
Good point.
I have been in Sig when it was bristling with fighters and heavy troop carrying helicopters. May have been a exercise. With all of the forewarning and urgent requests, these resources should have been placed on alert in Sig with prior approval of the authorities. By air, with afterburner, Benghazi is a really quick trip and afterburner fly-overs with a little shock and awe ordinance would have easily quelled the situation. If the military had been in charge, the catastrophe would have never happened, perhaps not even getting airtime on CNN. Over before it started. However, an indifferent administration with no military savvy CAUSED this atrocity to get out of hand. High ranking seasoned Military officers were fired/retired to cover up the incompetent Secretary of State, and her cowardly, equally incompetent President. Lesson learned (again): let the military top brass do what they have studied and been trained to do all their lives. Never turn it over to elected/appointed community organizers who have never had the courage to wear America’s uniform and serve in war zones.
You are wrong on every single point.
What “shock and awe” ordinance would you use, and what would you do with it?
The military was in charge. Obama gave the order to the Chairman of the JCS, and from that point on it was all on the military.
Nobody in the military was fired to coverup for anyone. The Sec of State had zero authority over the situation after Obama gave the go ahead order.
The first thing Obama did was turn it over to the military with the order to do what is necessary.
Your prejudices not withstanding.
Some one should send this to Bill O’Reilly — he seems to think the distance is much farther than it is and thus gives Hillary a pas on this.
So, O’Reilly got one right for a change.
Prior vet who later worked as a civilian for the federal government for over 25 years. Learned that when the government says that they can’t do something, it actually means they won’t.
NAS Sigonella supported over 2000 sorties during “kinetic action” in Libya and you are saying they are not able to fuel one F 16.
Excuses that any action would be difficult or even impossible doesn’t justify not even attempting to try!
That is what Americans do.
THE IMPOSSIBLE OTHERS WILL NOT DARE!
They were squids after all 😉
YES!!!
I was stationed at Hellenikon AB in Athens for years and traveled between these bases. There was a ready alert at Aviano AB for the F-16s, so unless they dismantled the capability in later years … this is all hypothetical. I know Obama has dismantled our force structure in Europe, and brought all our heavy armor home from Germany. It’s possible he has done this, too. If he did … that contributed to this tragedy.
I know it’s been a long time since you posted but the M1’s are back in Germany.
The main point about Benghazi is that there was an order from the force protect team leader named “Bob” He told Geist, Paronto, and Tiegen to wait.. or stand down. Why? Then the subsequent sales job about a video was to blame.. blah blah.. It’s all a bunch of BS.
Your ignorance shows your comment is a bunch of BS. Watch the Fox News interview on Youtube with the authors of 13 hours about that. The team leader was arranging support from a friendly militia. They got about 30 men to accompany them. I doubt 4 or 6 contractors, regardless of their backgrounds, would have done much against some 100+ attackers. At that all the militia could buy them was about an hour or less before they had to pull back, with Smith’s body and without Stevens.
They had good reason to belive video was involved, some of the attackers were interviewed by a local journalist and said that was why they were there.
My son was in the Marine Corps at this time and might very well have been in a situation such as this. When he went on active duty one of the things we thought so was the fact that he might-probably-find himself in harms way. Should that have happened I expected that the US government would have moved mountains to assist. If it was too late we and he were prepared to accept the outcome. To sit by and decide “gee, we just can’t get there in time, wish we could but that’s the way it goes. Sad.” Just doesn’t fly with me. The question that needs answered is what had they held out for 24 hours? What had they been able to fashion an escape? We threw In the towel on this affair.
They were out in less than 24 hours. The Marine FAST team arrive in Tripoli in less than 24 hours. A large relief column arrived in Benghazi, at the CIA annex, about 6AM the 12th. That was just over an hour after the last mortar attack. By 10AM they were on their way out. Before the FAST team got setup the survivors were out of the country. All in less than 24 hours.
Nobody gave up, just said, “We can’t get there in time”. They did what they could.
Nobody threw in the towel. How do you fashion an escape from a town in the middle of the desert? Bogart was not there to help them.
Great Report . But all involve must be. interrogate one more time . is many loos poles .
But the Report is in part good
Every single person who had anything to do with it needs to be questioned, under oath, and by professionals, FBI perhaps, not political hacks playing for the cameras.
This Whole thing with Bengasi has been bugging me ever sence the evening of 9-10- 2012 when I was on my way home, and was going to fuel up my car, I was going to stop at a local foreign operated gas station, but when I arrived the station was darkened , the pumps were off, and I seen a guy on a ladder, he was changing the price on the overhead fuel price signs, increasing it by
40 cents a gallon, when I seen what he was doing bells started going off in my head , about what the following day was 9-11 , living only about 28 miles from NY City the memory of that day of the world trade centers attack, will always live in my mind. After many thoughts going through my mind , I decided to approach these two camel jockeys about what they were up to , and I did , I asked them what happened or was going to happen, that would increase the price by 40 cents a gallon, their response was a look of fear, and you got me, so with that in told them I was going to get in touch with the government about what they were doing. I tried but at 9: 30 pm in the evening, it’s very difficult to get in touch in the government, to tell them anything .Well the next day, after I heard what happened in Bengasi , I went back to the gas station, and it was closed , and closed for a week or more after that. When it reopened it was under a new name , and had American Flags All over the place. The two workers that I had approached were long gone ! Replaced by all new crew and new owner.
You Know how you hear all the time , ” If you see something SAY something ”
Well I tried to no avail, A national hotline should be established and posted all over ! And manned by people that can get the call to someone that can do something ! Until the day I die , I will never forget Bengasi or the night before.
Oh S***! Do you really think someone told two gas jockeys about an attack on a US State Dept compound the day before?
Do you really believe that? That’s truly tin foil level.
I am a Desert Storm Air Force veteran who happens to have flown air refueling tankers. I can guarantee you that there was a tanker sitting somewhere in the vicinity of Italy or even Sigonella on a routine mission or real world Air bridge / resupply mission. I guarantee you if they had gotten the call they could have had that plane airborne within an hour (if one wasn’t already airborne over the Mediterranean, highly likely that there was at least one) ready to refuel any fighters that needed it. There would not have even been a need for them to stop in Sigonella to refuel. I have flown routine training fights when I’ve been called to provide emergency air refueling for drug interdiction fighters off the coast of Florida, it doesn’t take a lot of fuel to keep these planes airborne and on station, within two at the most three hours, prior to the deaths taking place at the Annex. This was deliberate and willful caving into the political correctness that Lybia was a success, the same political correctness that Bill Clinton used to deny ac 130 air support resulting in the tragedy and the crime of Black Hawk Down. This was another criminal act resulting in the needless deaths of Americans, by Obama and Hillary, no doubt about it!
Well, the snarky answer would be that their evil people, a better answer is they are truly evil, demented and all that matters is their lust for power and the destruction of the US
I’ll go for door number two
You are right Steve, it is door number two…
I Thank all of the above for their service, I have great
affection, respect and admiration for you, and I am very
proud of you. God Bless You!
Well, it is about time someone thought of the tankers in flight, Rafael. Good point. Tankers getting a mission change in flight is normal. Bet there was half a dozen KC’s in the area between Mildenhall and Aviano.
I don’t give a damn about what you are a veteran of. I see you as a political hack smear artist.
Bill Clinton didn’t deny anyone anything in Black Hawk Down, that was strictly military, without even notification to the President that it was happening.
Did you read the book? Don’t tell me you saw the movie, did you read the book?
There was no “political correctness” in Benghazi, Obama gave the Chairman of the JCS to order to do whatever was necessary. End of discussion on that.
How long could they stay over the annex? Passing by every 5 minutes at 500knots with what, 10 seconds viewing time?
If they arrived 2 hours before the attack they would have needed to stay over for two hours. Or maybe 3 or 4. If the locals heard them going over and over, all they had to do was wait for them to stop.
Being stationed in England in 1986 in the Air Force under Ronald Reagan, we bombed Libya. Didn’t take more than 12 hours and we had to fly around France because we could not fly over there airspace due to our mission. Benghazi could have been avoided.
How much prep time did they
have for that mission? How
long did it take to get to Libya?
Think about the difference in
missions and the timeline
involved on the the attack on
the Consulate and the annex.
Could a F16 arrive on target
within the first hour of the attack?
Guys, several things to keep in mind is: 1) The stated combat radius for a F-16 carrying 4 1,000 pounders is 340 miles. The question is did Aviano have Mk 82 500 lb bombs in stock and/or Mavericks? The range with the smaller ordnance would be greater. 2) The Italian Air Force took delivery of 4 Boeing 767 tankers in 2011, was any thought given to calling Rome for their use? 3) This attack was a violation of the North Atlantic Treaty and the President would have been legally able to ask for treaty assistance. Why wasn’t it asked? 4) The airport at Chania in western Crete is a joint civil/military facility and is approx 330 miles from Benghazi. As a NATO member, POTUS could easily asked Greece’s permission to use their airfield. Why didn’t he?
A couple of things left out here. The F-16 has a top air speed of 1496 MPH, not 500. It would not carry 1,000 pound bombs into a scenario like this but rather be armed for close ground support with wing and centerline tanks. This is the mission it has taken on with the F-15 flying fighter air cap. These planes certainly could have flown their and back with refueling support from Germany or NATO resources in the area. These resources were not deployed to cover up obama and clintons activities in Benghazi arming terrorists.
You know it is amazing that Incirlik AFB, which is 100 Miles closer to Benghazi, is being left out of this story. Also know in fact that it has a hell of a lot more firepower plus mid-air refueling capabilities.
They left out a whole lot of available assets that could have been used. The administration was already spinning the story about “protests”. I knew a pilot that flew out of Sigonella. All bases were on alert because it was 9/11 and they expected some problems. That was their job in Sigonella was to be able to react to situations in North Africa.
We can debate this for the rest of our lives, but the bottom line is that Obama and Clinton let four Americans die so that their gun-running wouldn’t be exposed. Our military can do anything at any time. They just weren’t allowed to go. Obama and Hillary should be charged with treason.
Amen
Yes, treason!
Several months after the attack occurred, I was thinking about it one night at my computer. I remembered that I had a coworker at one time who had been in the Air Force, stationed at Aviano. Then, I looked up the specs for F-16’s after finding that was what was at Aviano. Jane’s is pretty thorough. They actually have quite a long combat radius, in fact, I’m looking right now at an actual Air Force fact sheet that says 500 miles out, deliver the load, fight off enemy aircraft, and return and it’s a pretty straight shot to Benghazi. They can also carry external fuel tanks to extend the mission. I realized there would be need for refueling also, and like the author here, noticed the various bases that could have provided that support possibly, and though I assumed that maybe there were tankers in the air anyway, one of the gentlemen above said it was highly likely from personal experience and others on other forums who were in the Air Force . There are no excuses for not sending at least a couple of planes out there as fast as could be safely done, and they likely would have been in position to strafe and possibly drop a bomb or two; like a guy elsewhere said, these were soft targets so there would be no need for a load of ordinance, most likely full loads of rounds for the cannons, which would have been plenty for the mission, plus a bomb or two. With external tanks, they might have even made the trip one way without refueling with a light load of arms. Another thing I encountered recently, was a young Marine, now civilian guard at a local prison. I wish I had heard what he called the unit, but there are 50 man, heavily armed Marine combat teams ready to be anywhere in the world in 24 hours. This wouldn’t apply here except for one thing. The deteriorating situation in Benghazi was known to the military and the Marines assumed they would dispatch one of those units, which would have been there before the incident, making it short lived at worst, and maybe never have even occurred.
The Marines have 24 hour alert status however there were lightly armed, but very effective, Air Force CSPs (Raven) on 30 minute notice. They act as a sort of Cavalry for the AF as Army and Marine units tend to mobilize and move very, very slowly. With no less than two squads or four fire teams of these guys on 24X7 (30 men 30 minutes) alert at both Sigonella and Aviano I have to question but the lack of air and ground support. Both Raven teams were ordered to stand down.
Dude, you are a moron, none of what you said is true.
Dude you are the moron, Hellary is a moron, Obama is a moron…..the generals are lying s.o.b.’s.
From the middle of Germany to Libya is less than 1700 miles. A airplane going about 560 mph will get there in about 3 hours. A F-16 can fly between 900- 1500 mph, and should fly there in less than 2 hours. They can fly at least 500 miles, fight, and still return. Ordinary range is 2000 miles. There were bases much closer than that (Sigonella Air Base is 469 miles), and tanker planes, if not already in the air, could have been sent.
It was September 11th, the middle east was in turmoil and fighting, and the government says that nothing was ready to go? Jets should have been on ready, fully fueled with extra tanks, and armed, with pilots on standby. They should have taken off immediately, and could have been filled in on the exact destination in air. I feel that the government was not only totally incompetent, but just didn’t care. Every year around the anniversary of September 11th, everything should be on high alert.
General characteristics
Primary function: multirole fighter
Contractor: Lockheed Martin Corp.
Power plant: F-16C/D: one Pratt and Whitney F100-PW-200/220/229 or General Electric F110-GE-100/129
Thrust: F-16C/D, 27,000 pounds
Wingspan: 32 feet, 8 inches (9.8 meters)
Length: 49 feet, 5 inches (14.8 meters)
Height: 16 feet (4.8 meters)
Weight: 19,700 pounds without fuel (8,936 kilograms)
Maximum takeoff weight: 37,500 pounds (16,875 kilograms)
Fuel capacity: 7,000 pounds internal (3,175 kilograms); typical capacity, 12,000 pounds with two external tanks (5443 kilograms)
Payload: two 2,000-pound bombs, two AIM-9, two AIM-120 and two 2400-pound external fuel tanks
Speed: 1,500 mph (Mach 2 at altitude)
Range: more than 2,002 miles ferry range (1,740 nautical miles)
Ceiling: above 50,000 feet (15 kilometers)
Armament: one M-61A1 20mm multibarrel cannon with 500 rounds; external stations can carry up to six air-to-air missiles, conventional air-to-air and air-to-surface munitions and electronic countermeasure pods
Crew: F-16C, one; F-16D, one or two
Unit cost: F-16A/B , $14.6 million (fiscal 98 constant dollars); F-16C/D,$18.8 million (fiscal 98 constant dollars)
Initial operating capability: F-16A, January 1979; F-16C/D Block 25-32, 1981; F-16C/D Block 40-42, 1989; and F-16C/D Block 50-52, 1994
Inventory: total force, F-16C/D, 1017
(Current as of September)
Steve, although an F-16 has an advertised Mach 2 capability as stated by the manufacturer you have to realize that this is a selling point. This max speed flown by the test pilot for the manufacturer is done under ideal conditions with no external tanks, munitions, etc., and a very light fuel load and only for a very short distance and the aircraft lands immediately after the speed run because it is almost out of fuel. An F-16 would be in Afterburner during this run with a fuel flow of approximately 36,000 lbs. per hour or 600 lbs. per minute. Taking this into account an F-16 in Afterburner would burn all of its internal fuel of approximately 7,000 lbs. in about 12 minutes. If you had an external fuel tank of 370 gallons (2405 lbs. of JP-5) you would only add about 4-6 minutes. With external tanks and bombs I would think that you wouldn’t be flying much faster than about 400 to 450 knots. In view of the fact that the combat radius of the F-16 is stated as being around 290 nautical miles and with Benghazi over 900 nautical miles from Aviano, Italy the pilots would certainly need an Air Force Tanker to even get them to Benghazi and you are talking about several hours just to fly that distance. In backing up, having been an Attack Pilot, I would be surprised if an Air Force squadron, not on alert, could gather all of its people in under two hours. Then you would need to download the F-16’s in all likelihood, up load them with external tanks maybe, bring munitions from the Ammo Dump, etc. Another thing to ask is who controls the munitions at Aviano? The Italians or the Air Force? You can rest assure that the squadron would not have any bombs under his control. Also, as someone previously mentioned you would probably have to coordinate with the Italians to fly an armed aircraft out of any base in Italy. If you took off with only internal M61 Al Vulcan cannon aboard you are only talking about approximately 511 rounds and with a firing speed of 100 rounds per second you would be out of rounds in 5 seconds. Of course, you would want to restrict your bursts to about 1-2 seconds per run. If you were carrying 1000 lb. bombs aboard I doubt seriously if the gents at the CIA ANNEX would want you dropping them close to them even if the terrorists were 200 feet away. Having dropped 500, 1000, & 2000 lb bombs in combat I would be concerned that a 1000 lb bomb striking within 200 ft of the Annex would collapse the building. The fragments from a 500 lb bomb go out about 3000 ft. Also, something else that has not been brought up is, “Who would be controlling the F-16’s?” You would need a Forward Air Controller to be in contact with the pilots who could mark the target. With the thousands of lights in the city of Benghazi you don’t think somebody in the Annex could stand up and wave his arms and shout to direct the pilots, do you?
Lin
Good point, it’s simply too difficult so let’s not try to send in support. Let them all die and we’ll meet the families with the bodies and say it was a protest to a video that we simply weren’t prepared for.
That’s what our government did.
The F16 has a combat radius of 340 miles but a ferry range of 2600 miles using two drop tanks. If the intent was a flyby to scare the attackers off or even engage them the F16 could have made the flight with ease.
An F16 configured with a complement of air to surface and air to air missiles for defense plus its Gatling cannon, no bombs, and 2 drop tanks would have been able to fly without refueling from Aviano Italy to Benghazi and maintain a presence there for some time and return. You wouldn’t have to configure the plane for maximum destruction, only as a deterrent. If multiple F16s were sent then the attack on the embassy would have been stopped.
There did not seem any will to protect the Americans there, I can’t find any reason why not in the testimony. Testimony states the presence of F16s would have been sufficient to chase the attackers off but if not the cannon and missiles would have.
Why do we need a military when we have internet warriors?
Because some of those internet warriors have been in real war an have honorable retired. Somebody should listen. Bengazi should have had F16’s, C130’s, P3’s, along with French, Italians, Germans and Americans flying over that city until all Americans were safely off. That’s how it used to done!
No one is wondering where our air craft carriers were at the time. We all know that they are constantly in the Med. Why couldn’t they respond? they have arial refueling capability on deck.
I thought the same thing. No carrier group in the Mediterranean on the anniversary of the worst terrorist attack in history.
Good discussion folks, but if you want to get totally pissed, go see the movie 13 Hours. It’s unforgivable that our top leadership is so inept, dishonest and, in one case, has the guts to ask us to elect her to POTUS…………and all this ignores the lies on top of lies to cover it all up. Maybe we’ll eventually see a set of emails clearing all this up………..not so LOL!!!! She, at least, needs to go to jail….no pardon, no parole. no nothing!!
a. Well if that’s the case then G W Bush should be hung for his fuck up. We only lost 2000 plus Americans that day.
Get your facts straight. There was no where near that number when we attacked.
The differance Is that Chris Stevens didn’t sign up for the military and Hillary Clinton didn’t tell him his was going to be in a war with terrorist.
Libya also has airports that could handle the craft landing there after the mission. The combat radius of the F18 Superhornet is 1,275 miles. Were there any Superhornets at Sigonella? Sigonella was a Naval Air Station That means part of its mission was supporting the aircraft carriers that come through the Med. As far as the unions having some kind of veto over the flights, the only thing they could have demanded was some kind of pay off afterwards. I don’t think that any contract that the US military has with anyone would allow them to block an operation. As for Italy refusing to let missions be launched from there, that’s a political decision that the Italians would have had to have been adamant about to the point that they would be willing to accept responsibility for the killings. I don’t think anyone would be willing to do that, but most telling is that Obama didn’t even try. DIDN’T EVEN TRY.
No, Joe, the F-18 Combat Radius is only about 400 nautical miles and there are none stationed at Sigonella. Read the House Armed Services Report and listen to what the Generals testified to. Lin
Unrefueled range is 1800 miles and they certainly wouldn’t be doing combat all the way acros the Med. Could have easily sortied from Sigonella to Benghasi
Bottom line, they where told in March then in July they needed additional security and the warning was ignored. Nothing was ever done to prevent the inevitable. That old evil hidden agenda always seems to rear it’s ugly head. Divided majority will lose everytime.
As every person who has ever been in the military knows, there is always a duty section standing duty at almost every command in the US military around the clock. Therefore there would have been at least one duty section of F-16s in Aviano available to respond to the situation in Benghazi. Aviano Air Base is under the command of EUCOM. EUCOM is under the command of the National Command Authority (NCA) which consists of the President of the US and SecDef. By telling the F-16 s to stand down and not respond to the situation in Benghazi, both Obama and Leon Panetta are guilty of murder. EUCOM and the officers in the chain of command in EUCOM on Sept 11/12 2012 are guilty of obeying an illegal order – that of not responding to requests for help from personnel on the ground in Benghazi. Obama and Panetta should be charged with murder and the military officers in the EUCOM chain of command should be charged as accomplices to murder in US courts of law. Period.
Yes, Buffy, Yes!!
I am confused by all these numbers. If the combat radius of an f16 is even 600 miles and Benghazi is only 300 miles away. Does that mean all the f16 could do is fly to Benghazi and immediately turn around and hope to make it back to Italy?
Regardless of the range and capabilities of the craft, the mission parameters were impossible.
The premise is that a simple fly by of an F-16 would have just scared these guys into giving up. That is a pretty absurd premise. Maybe it is possible they would have. Maybe these guys were also experienced combat solders that would have just ignored the jets unless they started dropping bombs and would have realized that an F-16 is close to useless when it comes to close combat squad level fighting. How would the Air Force drop ordnance while ensuring they didn’t kill the friendlies?
That is precisely why no aircraft were sent. Obama didn’t want to take a chance on collateral damage. It could have lost the re-election for him. He decided it was better to do nothing and lose a few men than to take a chance and kill civilians. They could always make up some excuse to sell to the American people like the video causing it. Obama and Hillary left these men to die plain and simple.
You are 100% correct. Mr. Obama’s love for the religion
of Islam, his constant defense of it, his relationship/support of the muslim brotherhood in Egypt, the multiple visits of
muslim brotherhood members to the White House, his
determination to allow tens of thousands of muslims into
our country, leads me to ponder: Is he facilitating the
spread of Islam/the Caliphate into our country? Has our
government been infiltrated? With regard to Hillary,
her top assistant, Huma Abideen (sorry about the mis-
spelling) has close relatives who are members of the
muslim brotherhood…….???
Also, we are told “See something, say something”
yet Loretta Lynch, U.S. Attny Gen says she will
prosecute those who disparage muslims and
their religion.
One. Previous reports had been that low-fly by’s by F-16s had, in some cases scattered Qaddafi’s soldiers. Worth a try on terrorists. Two. They had communication with the men on the Annex rooftop (and a Predator over the fight watching it). Even if the men on the rooftop did not have laser targeting equipment (all indications are that they did – and one of them told Brett Baier that they were lasing targets from the rooftop of the Annex as early as 11PM), they were all seasoned operators who sure as hell know how to call in fire on a grid location. In conjunction with the Predator’s feed, hitting a stationary mortar position even with un-guided munitions would have been child’s play for an F-16 pilot. Hell, strafe the position with the cannon.
Joel…Thank you for your logic, for your truth-telling….gives
me hope for the future.
saw an interview with a c 17 driver stationed at ramstein germany the day of the attack. in fact he flew to tripoli the next day to pick up the wounded and survivors. the c17 pilot pointed out that he could have prepped the plane in about an hour and fly to bengazi in under three hours. tactically, flying a tranport into a possible hot lz could be as hazadous to the rescue team as the the people they are trying to rescue. however , on the day of the anniversary of sept 11 and not have assets ready for any contingengy around the world much less the middle east is pure incompetence from the both the civilian and military command structure. also, any commander in the euro as well middle east theater who needs twenty hours to get a bird airborne should be fired on the spot. i believe this came from the aviano air base commander during a bars and stars closed door hearing in front of bengazi review board scam hearing.
The real question for me is why did Obummer and Hillary want this ambassador dead?
It was an election year and they wanted to hide their incompetence, plain and simple. Clinton lies and there’s audio and video proof she lied but the brain washed sheeple don’t care.
Unfortunately, there’s a lot of nut job responses in this thread and a lot of tangents into nothingness, and it undermines the most basic of questions. This playbook has always called for a vacuum of information, because it causes people to fill it with nonsense about the Gulf War, changing gas prices, rehashes of earlier wrongs by both parties, etc etc etc etc.
The real question: Where is the group of people who would not take no for an answer, the ‘steely-eyed missile men’ of our armed services and our great civilian minds in civil service at the White House?
Considering all of the Joint commands, attache posts, and if ‘every DOD asset’ was made available for assisting those brave Americans who were in Benghazi, where is the chain of communication showing the outside the box thinking?
Permission to send in armed aircraft should have been obtained immediately, even if it ultimately proved to be impossible. IF permission was going to be requested, it should have been crossed off the list in the first hours. Once we had a plan, we could have read the Libyans in as necessary.
Is the appropriate fuel type available in Sigonella? It stands to reason it was. Regardless of the variant, those AF planes should have had no trouble making Sigonella, and as it was support for those kinetic sorties, also no problem with the landing of armed aircraft. If so, one call from the WH/State Department should have cleared that up as well, NATO treaty and all that.
So, now we have armed aircraft within striking distance. We need to get them fueled. No one could, capable of refueling an F16, could be found? A crew from the AF base did not have access to a small passenger aircraft to land at Sigonella and refuel the birds themselves? If that wasn’t going to work, why wasn’t a crew from Germany loaded up and also en route?
It was clear that the airport was regarded as a generally safe zone – in absolute desperation, the F16s could have been landed at Benghazi or Tripoli having completed their sorties. Refueling and getting them back to base could have been accomplished in the days to come.
All of these efforts might ultimately have failed or come too late – that would have been tragic and required further evaluation of our force readiness. But that NONE of these things happened? That is the question I want answered. The Ambassador was an incredible servant of this country, and everything our Department of State is expected to be – brave, compassionate, loyal, enterprising. It is also everything our defense apparatus, from the White House to the decision makers in Italy, were NOT that night.
We owe to ourselves, and the men who died in Libya, to find out why we couldn’t deliver on our promises as Americans that night. And we owe it to ourselves to rectify that problem, however much it costs, as soon as possible.
It is completely unacceptable that with all the military assets that the United States of America has that there was no air support the night of the attack. Not just a fly by with F-16’s but real air support to help repel the attack. What good is spending all the money we do on defense when we do not use it to save American lives. The people that made the decisions that night have to live with themselves. They let those individuals down and let their country down – the ones that really pay the price are the families of the deceased. All the reasons for not providing air support are all weak and nonsensical excuses that do not make sense.
The bases are not the question we have year round carriers group in the med complete with Marines for ground attack, attack aircraft, air refuel, no reason not to launch and head for the Libya
Patently false.
We do tours through the Med. We do not have carriers on standby in the Med, and even when we do, the Med is a large body of water, not necessarily within close air support range.
Even a cursory search will show this to be true.
http://www.gonavy.jp/CVLocation.html to see what our birdfarms are up to.
And a simple search will reveal carriers do not carry infantry grade USMC for combat roles.
Googled knows his/her stuff.
Googled…no matter what you or others say, there is no excuse for not
trying to save our men. You an repeat your opinion a million times, it still
does not make you correct. You keep forgetting Chris Stevens, etc., asked
for help weeks before, yet nothing was done. The blood of our men is on the
hands of Obama, Hillary Clinton, and the others know who they are. Hillary
Clinton is one of the worst human beings on the face of the earth, she is evil
to her core, the republicans are bad, but the democrat party is pure evil through
and through.
I have news for you: All powerful superpower does not mean all powerful at all. And besides, the CIA was there. Why didn’t they pull some super secret stuff, or maybe all that all powerful jazz is only on the big screen. Reality sucks.
I will summarize this in the words of the Legal Document that allows us to use the air base at Sigonella, Sicily.
1. We don’t own the airspace. We are not in a position to say, “Hey, our boys are in trouble and we are going to help them.” We are guests in a sovereign country.
2. We do not have permission to take off and land as we please at JOINT BASE Sigonella.
All of this is contained in the contract located at: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/107265.pdf
It is very American to go stomping in with complete disregard for any collateral damage. It is a NATO Installation and this was not a NATO operation, but that is still not relevant. We need permission to fly.
Now, did I point out that we do not need permission to fly in and out of Rota, Spain? The CIA used this to their advantage often.
Would Italy and Spain look favorably upon us for flying supersonic over their country? I am sure the armchair Generals do not care.
Italy is just across the water from Libya. America, who the terrorists would want to strike back at, are thousands of miles away. So the best thing to do to extract revenge would be to hit the heart of the country that provided all the logistics for the bombing. It is kind of like stomping into Iraq, completely unprepared to win.
OK, time for the armchair generals to respond to this poor little ole submarine sailor.
Too many arm chair generals here, most of whom claim no military experience. The instant that President Obama was informed of the attack, he ORDERED all DOD resources to respond. Let me assure you that when the President issues such orders, the military goes to any extreme to carry them out. Moreover, we have the sworn testimony of one of our nation’s most highly regarded soldiers, and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Dempsey, who testified that there simply was no way to get any support there in time.
The comments of “anonymous”, above, are correct.
I am tired of reminding you that Ambassador Chris Stevens
asked for help WEEKS before the attack, to no avail. Please
respond, and educate this arm chair general (lady).
P.S. I DETEST MR. OBAMA
Hmmm…asked for help WEEKS before the attack? For Tripoli or Benghazi?
Apparently Amb. Stevens was traveling back and
forth between Benghazi & Tripoli….so any “help” re-
quested, and given, would undoubtedly have been in the air, or on the ground with him.
Mr. Obama and Hillary Clinton are the scum of the
earth. I hope their nights are filled with the most
horrible nightmares, every night, until the day they die.
Facts are facts. Intelligent human beings will make our position known this November!
13 hours is a helluva movie!
After you watch the movie 13 hours, then come back and post about those brave people in Benghazi. They were deserted by the US government.
I suggest you all read the testimony of Admiral Michael Mullen 19 Jun 2013, Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, HASC interview of the Defense Attache 31 Jan 14, and General Dempsey’s Testimony and draw your own conclusions. All of these are classified documents that have since been redacted and available to the public. Libya was not the only concern that night and unless you actually know what was going on at the NSC, DoS, White House, and Combatant Command go ahead and arm chair quarterback it all you like. I and my family have been involved in U.S. embassy evacuations, I have worked in combat zones where I have accepted certain levels of risk. Every one that is furthering the interests of the United States accepts that risk and does their job. You don’t know how vulnerable you truly are until you serve in that environment. In a foreign environment we walk a fine line between protecting ourselves and maintaining an air of access so we can still execute our foreign policy. In all that I have read Ambassador Stevens knew that and he willingly accepted the risk that fateful night in order to advance U.S. interests in Northern Africa. He is not the first and sadly he will not be the last.
Your defense/explanation/excuse regarding of the Benghazi tragedy tells me that you are pro-Obama, the scumbag, and Hillary the scumbag.
I don’t believe Admiral Michael Mullen, just as I don’t believe FBI
Dir. Comey. If Amb. Stevens willingly accepted the risk, why did he
practically beg for help in the weeks preceding his death at the hands
of the subhuman animals.
harsh tone. they gave their experience, and you insult instead of listening. Shame. You are buying into too much of the conspiracy crap
Apparently, you have not read the posts, the over-
whelming majority agree with me, or better said, I
agree with them. These are MY fellow-citizens, not
yours, and you could never hope to care for them
as much as I do. Furthermore, I am really not
interested in anything someone from Canada has
to say about the Benghazi situation, or anything
else having to do with MY country. You should
concern yourself with YOUR country. The men in
MY country are true WARRIORS.
First you all bitch and moan about the war and how much it is costing and our deficit. Bush signs a SOFA to get us out of Iraq and pulls out 8K troops before Obama comes in Office. War is still unpopular so Obama continues troop draw down honoring the Bush administration’s SOFA. Our ability to provide domestic and international security is eroded and something bad happens. Seriously, you are shocked? Do you want to have enough money and free time so you can catch fucking Pokémon Go or do you want to get serious about fighting Islamic radicals? So as popular opinion goes so does our leadership.
Looks to me like you have a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks with little knowledge of how things really work other than what they have garnered from watching TV and the internet. When you break this down pragmatically it’s pretty easy to understand why it went down they way it did. Diplomatic work is very dangerous, those who do it understand this. There has been so much misinformation posted regarding this by people with political axes to grind it nearly impossible for your typical American citizen to digest. Thanks for those of you posting on here trying to be the voice of reason. Pretty difficult when you have people who watch a lot of tv but have very little knowledge of how the real world works.
I agree with those of you who agree that Obama and Hillary betrayed the brave men defending the Consulate in Benghazi and the CIA compound against superior number of radicals who outgunned them.
In any conflict, the primary responsibility of the President is to save American lives. If our military can do so with minimal or no collateral damage to others or by flying air support over the host country’s territory in order to help the threatened Americans, that is the icing on the cake. The collateral damage risk should never be used as a reason for not rescuing American lives in harm’s way.
Libya, in spite of US requests to help our Benghazi personnel under attack did not. For that reason, I believe that saving American lives beats hands down the concern of collateral damage near our personnel and of Libya’s hurt feelings.
Under recognized international diplomatic agreements, the host country must assure the safety and protect from attack all embassies and consulates in their territory. An attack on an embassy or consulate is considered an act of war.
To me, it is telling that the brave defenders in Benghazi were all combat experienced Special Forces and career military men. Those that survived, resigned from the military / security service shortly after they arrived the USA.
I am not an arm chair general, I was not in the military, and I do not profess any expertise in military aircraft or artillery matters. So I found sources with that expertise and asked them. My sources herein are 1) a Top Gun US Navy fighter pilot with over 200 sorties in each of the two Iraq wars. He later became a Navy fighter pilot instructor. 2) Naval artillery specialist involved in the Vietnam and first Iraq war. 3) the manufacturer of the equipment and armament mentioned and what the US Navy says about them.
Assets available at the time of the Benghazi attack to provide fire support to our personnel
1. The only available air support assets that WOULD have made a difference were USAF F-16s in Aviano. They could have made the mission with aerial tankers from Sigonella (or elsewhere). Probably best option.
2. There were two Arleigh Burke class missile guided destroyers close enough to Benghazi (within 45 minute helicopter flight time). The destroyers could have provided fire support. It seems no one (in Obama’s administration) authorized their support. These destroyers can travel in excess of 35 mph. These destroyers have amazing armament.
Each destroyer had one H-60 attack helicopter with Hellfire missiles, night vision, 2 x M240 machine guns, 2 x M134 mini-guns, 2 GAU-19 Gatling 50 caliber machine guns, etc. The helicopters could also have provided their artillery the necessary coordinates and other info for their support. Cruising speed of this helicopter is about 170 MPH.
M240 each 100 rounds (7.62×51mm NATO) per minute fired in 6 to 9 round bursts and 4 to 5 seconds between bursts.
M134 each Mini-gun -, six-barrel rotary machine gun with a high rate of fire 2,000 to 6,000 rounds per minute (of 7.62×51mm NATO rounds) which can also fire at a high-sustained rate
GAU-19 Gatling guns each – rate of fire of 1,300 shots (50 caliber) per minute
Missiles – Hellfire and others
The destroyer’s 5-inch (127-mm)/54 Mk-45 Mod canon has a range of approx. 15 miles. It could shoot from over the horizon. Rate of fire is 16-20 per minute.
3. There was also one USMC FAST team (Fleet Anti-Terrorism Support Team) on the ground in Sigonella with C-130 transport available. They could have flown into Tripoli (worst case) and been there in plenty of time to at least save the guys at the CIA compound.
4. Maximum distance between the attackers and the US defenders was a
maximum radius of approx.150 yards
Back then, we no longer kept aircraft carriers full time in the Mediterranean.
One excuse given during the Senate investigation of Hillary was the concern of another Black Hawk Down incident. The Black Hawks were shot down by RPG’s (max range about 300 meters) while hovering over a downtown area to rescue soldiers on the ground.
The H60 helicopters can provide heavy suppressing fire from outside the range of an RPG. Their mission at Benghazi would have been to suppress the approx.140 radicals attacking the brave 4-6 US defenders. A totally different mission.
Hillary said during the Senate investigation that she did not attend Benghazi security briefings or read those briefings before and during the attacks. Also, Hillary’s appointed ambassador was warned not to go to Benghazi due to security concerns.
My opinion is that concentrating that much firepower in such a defined area would have stopped the attackers and saved American lives.
It seems Obama / Hillary never (a) authorized the destroyers with their helicopters to provide support, (b) never obtained tankers from Sigonella that would have enabled the F16’s to travel non-stop from Aviano to Benghazi and (c) were wrong in ordering all whom the brave security men contacted for support to stand down.
It seems Obama and Hillary were more interested in excuses for not supporting the men in Benghazi and too easily tolerated indifference from Libya.
Someone on the thread said Italy did not offer their full help in a crisis involving US lives. If true and I do not know this is true, someone needs to remind Italy that we liberated them from the Nazis and Mussolini. If that was indeed the case, then Italy needs to be made an offer they can’t refuse and they need to similarly make a similar offer to their union at Sigonella. After all, Italy is a US ally and a fellow member of NATO.
Certainly, if not the F-16’s, then destroyers and their helicopters could have provided timely lifesaving fire support or maybe USMC FAST team should have been authorized to help
Is a veteran widowed I’ like the people
Who cause the ded of our heroes on benghazi pay for it you have my support
100%!!
Just like the 2009 Fort Hood Massacre, the 2ND 9/11 Attack(S) on 2012 was /is proof Obama is incompetent or intentional. I believe in’s the latter. Obama’s be intentional since his Hope&Change theme. Hoping to change white America. 4 years, no one, NO ONE has been found responsible!!! Answer ,Obama administration is corrupt. People like John Kerry are the incompetent part. Even stronger proof is NOT ONE wheel move towards the fight. NOT ONE after it started!!! When the Americans got home they were made to NOT SPEAK a word or retribution would come down hard. Lost of job & worst. This has gone on for 4 years because there’s NOT ENOUGH outrage from the public & PC Culture.
Monday morning quarterbacks can tell us why nothing would have worked. The fact is that nobody knew the timeline in advance. The fact is nobody outside of the heroes on the ground tried to help or were allowed to try.
Pretty long article, but there is a glaring problem with the entire premise.
FROM THE ARTICLE: “Basically, the consensus is that a single low altitude pass by an F-16 at full afterburner would have put the fear of God into the attackers”
The above quote is complete speculation. If it were true, the war in Afghanistan would have been over a decade ago.